… we will serve the Lord!
“Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshua 24:14-15
I have heard the end of verse 15 ( “but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” ) many, many times, but until tonight I had never really read the surrounding portion of this passage. Honestly, it makes the end of verse 15 much more meaningful to. It really makes it a choice to follow God.
Lately I have been really bothered by the thought that groups think it necessary to make laws or amendments to our constitution that would take freedoms and rights away from other people. One example of this is laws against homosexual marriages, but there are a number of other laws that are rooted in the same motivation and it’s not just religious groups. There are anti-religious groups that want to make prayer in public venues illegal. Laws against smoking marijuana or doing other drugs.
I am frustrated by the idea that someone thinks we can force God on someone with laws. God Himself doesn’t force Himself on people. He made laws for His people to follow, those people that have chosen to follow Him. There is even plenty of text to support that man will be judged by God. He assures us that we will be accountable for how we live on this earth. However, He doesn’t force us to follow Him on this earth. I don’t think that Christians should be trying so hard to insist that laws should be made against things that God doesn’t like and I don’t think that non-christians should try to impose laws against christians for worshipping God as they please.
God has given us the right to choose and I have grown to love the idea that it’s not a one time choice. We are faced with things daily, and we have to make a choice. Every day we are asked, will I serve my anger and stay mad at my brother or sister? Will i serve my lust and look at something I shouldn’t or do something I shouldn’t? Will I serve my pride and choose to put someone down so I can be lifted? Will I serve my envy and buy things I can’t afford? We are faced with these questions every day, and we can choose to serve those gods if we so choose, but surely we don’t need the government to tell us what our choice should be.
Making laws against things that God doesn’t like is very strange to me. Aside from the fact that there are tons of things in the Bible that God doesn’t like that we wouldn’t even think of making laws again, when laws are made, people may make the decision to not do something because of their fear of man made government as opposed to making a conscience chose to not do something every day simply because God instructs to live differently. I am not suggesting that a fear of consequences on this earth is necessarily bad, I just think it is strange for Christians to insist that we need government to protect God’s law. God surely doesn’t need a corrupt government that has a monopoly on oppressing people to defend His laws. What we really need is more christians to stand up and say, that yes you are free to live as you wish, but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
Q:The main difference here is you see something like abortion as "harming" somone else in your eyes, but not homosexuality. Homosexuality is a sin. Sin is sin is sin. Therefore it harms people. It harms many people. I've seen it with my own eyes - devastating consequences sometimes worse than abortion. I've seen families destroyed, kids led astray, bodies racked with disease. I stand against sin in all forms. Right now, gay marriage is not legal. I separate human rights from sin. I'm going to fight until God allows it to fall, or we see an awakening and I don't have to.
But I won't rehash whats been said a billion times. As long as God's in control, what will happen is the best course. This started because I just didn't like that you went the route of calling Christians hypocrites for the kinds of personal beliefs and choices they make in this area.
abortion is much more than harming someone, it is killing them.
There are a laundry list of other sins that destroy families as well. Pride, jealously, anger, adultery, gossip, lies, etc. None of those things are illegal. by making homosexual marriage illegal, you aren’t stopping homosexuality. You are just saying they shouldn’t get the right to choose who they want to give state marriage rights to. By making it legal you aren’t even saying you agree with what people are doing. All you are stating is that people should have the right to choose how they live. Right now it is legal to drink and be all sorts of drunk. The only real consequence for being drunk is if you hurt someone else while being drunk or you are driving while intoxicated, which could potentially and does kill tons of people every year. I am not saying you condone people doing this, but it is legal. And when it was illegal all it did was make more sin by having mafias control it. Committing sin is a human right that we all have. We are given the right to choose. Anyone who thinks they should be able to control how other people live their lives or determine what rights they should or shouldn’t have because of their lifestyle doesn’t understand that God gave all of us a choice. You can’t make something illegal just because you don’t like it; well you shouldn’t be able to.
Q:Why do you assume I'm not against it? Heck I would love a world where atheists themselves didn't exist, but they do. Once again, this is a fight to save what's already in place. Even if you disagree with it, surely you can see that. When do struggles to stand against immortality have to end? Should we let two consenting adults abort their babies too? This is a stand against immorality, even if it "tramples" on supposed human rights. Like I said, I do think they should have their rights, but not like this. Not in this fashion, when it's clearly a moral battle. That's the difference here. That's what's being waged. It's a battle of the mind and soul, of morality.
Abortion is a different issue though. In that case another human is being killed and that human’s rights need to be protected even if un born. I don’t think homosexuality and abortion are on the same playing field. while both would be wrong in the eyes of God, one is a person choosing to act without harming another.
I assume you aren’t against atheists being married because there is no provision in the law to make all immoral marriage illegal. only one thing that you as a christian see as immoral trying to stop someone who is not a christian and doesn’t see as immoral. You are not allowed to choose how other people live. You have the right to decide how you live and you are allowed to encourage others on the way, but no impose laws on them.
Q:You're trying to combine two issues. On the surface this seems like issues of humanity, but it's a moral fight as well. If Satan is behind sin, then he's behind this issue. I'm not saying gay people shouldn't have equal rights. What I'm saying is that this stance has never been about equal rights. It's about standing against immorality.
is rejecting God not immoral? If it is, surely an atheist is just as immoral as a homosexual. So i ask the question again, why do we allow atheists to be married if they are just as immoral as homosexuals? A homosexual may even be willing to admit that God exists while he struggles with sin, yet an atheist refuses his existence all together. Why do we allow people to remarry after divorce so easily? According the Bible that is immoral as well.
If you are going to stand up against immorality, then you have to stand up against all of it. If you don’t then you are just picking and choosing what you think is immoral and not considering what the Bible teaches is immoral. Laws do not need to be made prohibiting immoral things if the people doing immoral things are not impeding anyone else’s rights. We have laws against murder, stealing, and things like this because in those cases one person is impeding another’s rights. But you are talking about making a law against something that two consenting are choosing to do.
Q:No worries. It was a good read. I'm still going to vote against gay marriage as long as its represented as marriage rather than civil unions. Sometimes it's not always about freedom, choice, and/or rights. Sometimes, it's about recognizing what God says and voting for your own beliefs. If the day comes when gay marriage is 100% legal in the U.S., then so be it. It was God's plan, and we still have truth in Scripture, but my hands won't be a part of it. I can vote against gay marriage with a clean conscience, because I know God is in control of all government, not man. When logic plays tug-of-war on the heart and mind, what else can a Christian do besides stand up for what he knows is right? My point being, Christians aren't hypocritical in being against all forms of gay marriage. Nor are they intolerant or hateful (I'm not saying they can't be, because some out there are, i.e. WestBoro), but not just because they vote by their conscious understanding of the Bible.
So at this point is it just that they want to call it marriage? Why does what they call it make any difference to you? Why doesn’t it bug you when atheists considered themselves married then? Why do we allow atheists to even get married? I mean anyone that won’t respect marriage as it was intended should be stopped as well then right? Surely we shouldn’t let people be getting remarried unless it falls into lines with the laws of the Bible.
It seems to me the only way that a christian who votes against the state granting equal rights to all citizens are the ones who have no problem with the state prohibiting them from worshipping their God. If they think the state can prohibit anyones rights just because another group decides that is right, then I guess they aren’t hypocrites. I’d say they are wrong and that they shouldn’t have the right to determine how someone else lives, but I wouldn’t call them hypocrites.
God gives us free will to choose how we live, he doesn’t give us the will to decide how others live.
Q:While I agree with a lot of what you said, I’m incredibly disappointed you didn’t even attempt to mention the other side. You basically called all Christians who disagree with you hypocrites. In what way did you think your blog would reach out to people when you start by essentially insulting them? You failed to recognize how personal this issue is. I don’t think that was your intention, but still, it blackens your entire piece.
I have no problem with gay people getting the same rights as married couples, but the problem has always been that something is trying to be presented as not sin, when in fact it is. You mentioned so many things that are sin that Christians aren’t fighting with the same zeal, but the main problem there is that those things aren’t being presented into American culture as “not sin.” Things such as dishonoring your parents, adultery, etc. are either sin or not sin. Most people know this and choose to do this anyway. But with abortion and homosexuality, a cultural war has been going on forever as to whether these things are sin at all. It’s a distortion – Christians aren’t just blindly picking things to be passionate about! You also failed to even mention one of main reasons why Christians are so passionate about this particular issue: the very real problem of public school teachers being able to press their morality on our children. You said it yourself: why aren’t we fighting more for freedom for kids in school. Doesn’t that include the option of parents being able to choose what their kids are taught about concerning this particular issue? Surely you knew these two issues were connected!
I’m not trying to debate, because frankly I think you’re right on a lot of points. But I just wanted to tell you that if you’re trying to get people to “see the light,” then maybe you need to start by coming to a true understanding of why this is such a hot topic for Christians. Your piece called them ignorant and hypocritical, when in fact this is an important and painful issue for many more reasons that what’s on the surface. Where is the love in your own writing? Where is the compassion for people affected by this in much more direct ways? And why did you only present your own viewpoint? I really think you didn’t even consider that. How can you possibly change their minds with such methods?
Just wanted to throw that out there.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I am a little confused though, because my article was written in response to many points I hear on the other side. I do agree there are other things to be addressed and I plan on writing more on this topic. It’s a very broad topic and my concern was being too long winded, so I tried to keep the points specific to the task at hand.
I also think that while what I wrote may be considered harsh, I don’t think it is without love. I started out by saying that I used to think the same thing and after closer examination I realize I was mistaken.
Your point about whether or not homosexuality is sin I do address. I stated that the Bible says it is sin, and we should approach it that way. My point is that homosexuality isn’t the only sin running rampant in our society and it’s not even singled out as the worst. Whether or not society sees it as sin is irrelevant, because God sees it as sin. How many christian families let children idolize athletes? better yet, how many christian homes have a dad that idolizes athletes?
Your point about public schools is an especially complicated one because it goes past the right to get marriage benefits and into the public school system. I have a bunch of notes to address that issue directly, but a quick point I want to make is that kids are taught many things at school that contradict the Bible. Evolution being the main one. It is each parent’s responsibility to make sure our children are being properly educated. If you don’t like what public schools teach, send them to private. If you can’t afford that or don’t like what they teach, then do home school. If you don’t have the time to do home school I’d encourage you to look at what you are doing that is prohibiting you from spending enough time to make sure your child is educated on the matters most important to you.
thanks again for your response. I truly appreciate any pointers on how I can approach issues or important points I’ve missed. I really enjoy the conversation about all of this and really enjoy learning what other people think.
The Hypocrisy of Christians Fighting Gay Marriage
Recently the state of New York legalized Gay marriage. This has caused quite a bit of discussion about which states should follow suit, with California getting the most pressure. As a resident of California I have been hoping that they would over turn the prop 8 decision since I foolishly voted for it. I think it is important to admit that I voted against gay marriage to show that a reasonable change of heart is possible and you can do so without losing your salvation. I’d like to explain why it is important for Christians to stop the protesting and look deeper at the message they claim to follow so passionately.
As a Christian I think it is our duty to reflect the life of Christ in as many aspects of our life as we can. I think we are to do this thoughtfully, with deep purpose, and conviction. I do not think it is our duty to make sure that everyone does the same, especially by way of laws that the government should enforce. As a libertarian, I am against a government that tries to impede anyone’s rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. As much as I respect our founding fathers, I think it’s clear even they missed this point a bit considering many had slaves, and they didn’t quite count woman as equals either. Many in our country who came to be free didn’t think others deserved the same rights to be free. I think all men are free and that it is a human right given by God that we should all acknowledge. This is an important point because God gave us the free will to choose or reject him. He gives each person the choice of whether they want to choose to follow Him on this Earth or live a life without Him. One of my favorite pastors, Jeff Vines of Christ’s Church of the Valley, talks about how God put the tree in the garden of Eden because it made Adam and Eve choose every day that they would follow Him. He promised them everything as long as they didn’t eat of the tree. We all know what happened at the end of this story, but the point remains that God allowed them to choose. It is our duty as Christians to take up our cross daily and choose to follow God. It is NOT our duty to insist or force everyone else do the same. We can show them the path we are on, but they must make the choice themselves.
The next logical point is to consider that just because God doesn’t like something, doesn’t mean it should be illegal. There are hundreds of laws in the Bible that Christians break every day. If you only look at the top 10 commandments of the Bible only 2 of them (murder & stealing ) are illegal in the united states and one is only illegal ( lying ) when you are under oath in a court. That means that 70% of those big 10 are completely legal in the United States. Although it is easily grouped in with adultery or lust, homosexuality isn’t even singled out in this group. How many kids worship athletes as idols? How many people, or more on point with this topic, how many married people commit adultery every day? How many Christians work on the sabbath? How many take the Lord’s name in vain? How many teen agers are guilty of not honoring their father and mother? All of these things God finds detestable, yet there is no push to make any of them illegal. Christians don’t want the government to enforce any of these laws for some reason. Why then are they so insistent that consenting homosexual couples not be allowed to have the same rights as the rest of us?
A great video illustrating some of these points is a clip from the West Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI. If you took the time to watch this video you’ll see Martin Sheen give a list of some of the other laws that most Christians wouldn’t acknowledge as ones they need to follow and would even consider them irrelevant. Of course those same Christians will mention that God doesn’t mention those in the new testament, but he does call out homosexuality many times so we really need to make sure we rid the world of homosexuality. One of the great misunderstandings here is that many American Christians forget that Bible was written in another language. The word used that we see translated as homosexuals is more accurately translated as someone who engages in perverse sexual acts. Surely there are many straight married couples who engage in these same perverse sexual acts. Yes, the Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin, but in the new testament it is never singled out as the worst sin and it is always mentioned as part of a list including many other sins like liars and thieves. It is not right to take one part of one verse and skew it’s meaning.
Generally when I am debating this topic, the next thing I hear will basically say that it’s acceptable for sinners to get married because they are getting married as God intended: one man and one woman. This is where I believe christians have lost their way on this debate. The Bible does not talk about marriage being between just one man and one woman. The Bible talks about marriage as being between one man, one woman, and God. The Bible does not define marriage as being between one man, one woman, and the state, which is how many see it today. The truth is that the state should have no say in marriage what so ever. A christian marriage does not need the state to be validated. A christian marriage needs one man, one woman, and God. If for some reason the state told me that I was not allowed to have a marriage license, I don’t care because my marriage is not validated by the state. I do not need them to be married to my wife. However the state does grant certain privileges to people who are married. And they grant these rights to every straight couple that seeks a marriage certificate even if the couple is atheist, buddhist, muslim, and so on. The government grants marriage certificates to many marriages that are not done in a way that is described in the Bible. In fact any marriage that rejects God, is in fact engaged in a marriage that goes against what the Bible teaches. Why then are christians not out to get all of these other marriages? Why is homosexuality singled out amongst all of these other things as the one bad thing that absolutely does not deserve to be given the benefits from the state? Because remember, Gay people can be together, they don’t need the state to allow that. What they are seeking is the same rights that married people are given. Many will argue that they are given civil unions which offer the same benefits. Well that just isn’t true. It is not a one to one ratio as far as rights go. Sure they could get lawyers to write up paper work and do those things, but why should they have to when every other straight couple can pay for a marriage certificate and be done with it?
Another very important part of this point is that not one single book of the Bible was written to Kings or other rulers insisting that they make laws according to Christ’s teachings. Every book was written to an individual or a church encouraging them to live as Christ lived. Encouraging them to get back on track. Warning them of what was to come if they lost their way. Many were written with harsh tones about sin and detestable behavior, but remember they were written to Christian churches who had claimed that they were following Christ. Paul and the other authors of these letters and books were out preaching the Gospel to lost souls all over the world. Only after churches were established were these letters written to them to keep encouraging them and warning them. Paul didn’t go around and find all of the homosexuals in the areas he preached and insist they all be stoned. It’s ludicrous that Christians are trying to do that now.
The great hypocrisy I see in this debate is that while Christians are actively pursuing the death of gay marriage in the United States they are also trying to defend their right to worship God in public forums. Some states have made illegal to pray at high school events. All across the United States it’s illegal for teachers to gather kids together to pray for each other. Teachers can get in trouble for reading the Bible outside of a historic context. I wish that more Christians would stand up for the right of every human to choose how they want to live their life. As long as people are not impeding on another person’s rights by injuring them, murdering, stealing, or generally prohibiting their pursuit of life and liberty, they should be free to live as they see fit. I think that if more Christians stood on the side of the gay community and said, “even though my beliefs go against your lifestyle I am happy we live in a country where we are free to live”, we would see way more people getting behind Christians and saying, “I really don’t believe in any of that Bible stuff, but I like that you Christians support my right to choose how I live and I want you to have that same right”. Maybe that is wishful thinking, but I think Christians could come out of this debate showing love and compassion for a lifestyle that they disagree with and acknowledge that our God shows all of us love and compassion in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.
